Join us for an episode that makes the link between the science, and the person behind the science, as clear as a hot day in Saudi Arabia. Dr. Derya Baran shares her adventurous path and background with us before talking us through her development and application of functional, non-silica-based materials with photovoltaic properties. Meet this amazing woman working to provide sustainability to us all.
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While most love adventure, it still takes courage and determination to go find it and commit to it. Dr. Derya Baran, a Turkish native, who studied in Austria, Germany, and the UK before now working in Saudi Arabia, has ample courage and determination that have provided a life of adventure!
This is one of our best explorations of the link between the person and the science. Derya, an academic researcher and entrepreneur, that can’t stop thinking about how her work can benefit people’s lives. She develops smart and functional materials for energy harvesting and conversion. Specifically, innovative organic materials with photovoltaic properties that can be used in challenging (hot and/or humid) environments and present unique properties of transparency, color, and ease of manufacturing, relative to traditional silica-based technologies. Her materials are enabling incredible concepts, such as self-sustainable greenhouses that can generate all the energy they need to enable agriculture in inhospitable environments.
There is a lot to like here… great science that promises to address very important global issues and the personal story of a smart, determined, woman, full of unlikely, brave choices.
Dr. Derya Beran00:06
By 2027, we're going to be all sustainable-grown food. Organic is out, sustainable is in.
Paolo 00:17
This may go without saying, but in the world of solar technology research, it's important to have sun. Derya Beran works in Saudi Arabia. And with all of the sun there, she's accomplished amazing things with photovoltaics and sustainable agricultural solutions. In this season three episode of Bringing Chemistry to Life, we speak with another member of Chemical and Engineering News' 2021 Talented 12 about their work and trends in the field. I'm your host, Paolo Braiuca from Thermo Fisher Scientific. We began by asking Dr. Baran about the unexpected journey from her own country of Turkey to Saudi Arabia.
Dr. Derya Beran00:55
It was surprising, honestly, completely surprising, because, like, the reason I went out abroad, first of all, was to come back and be a professor in my university. I loved my university. Like, the reason I wanted to be a professor I blame is my chemistry teacher, Levent Toppare, in my sophomore year and the campus.
Paolo 01:23
You shouldn't blame.
Dr. Derya Beran01:28
The other academics will resonate with me, it's a, it's a different lifestyle. It's not the work, you know, it's lifestyle. And, you know, we went to the campus, and it was beautiful. It was, we had a forest, it was green, academics were living in the campus, we had this so cool professor. I was like being a professor is awesome. And I was like, I want to come back here, be a professor. And, honestly, that's why I went out. And I said, I will have my studies and PhD and come back and apply here. But then opportunities came. And that's what you realize, over the time, when you're successful, when you're good at things, the doors open up, or you knock doors, and they open up. And I also have to admit, at the time, my country was not the best place to go back and look for opportunities academically as well. And that sort of guided you to new path to, to look. You sort of know things will work eventually if you work out or one way or another. And then you start to think of ideas, of course. And you know, when you when you follow literature, you see that other people are also thinking of same ideas, and they publish, or they present it. And that also makes you really like, oh my god, that was my idea and so on. And over time, you also realize, well, is it a good thing is a good thing that you think similarly to those cutting-edge people, etc. So, yeah, you gain a different perspective, over time that you can apply it to your science, I feel when you're mobile.
Paolo 03:14
Some of the best scientists are like that, the way you describe it, and the way you describe yourself, and also this endurance, and the sorts of confidence you develop, lets you choose paths that are not necessarily playing safe, right? Taking risks in in the right way in science really pays off. If you can do it, right, you need to be lucky, you need to be good enough. But without this sort of endurance and strength, you just don't get it, you just don't do it.
Dr. Derya Beran03:44
Now, I completely agree. And that's why I think I came to Saudi Arabia to take that risk. And also, you know, high risk, high gain sort of environments.
Paolo 04:00
Feels like a very original move, right? Or a very courageous one. How did this happen?
Dr. Derya Beran04:07
So it's sort of like before my move, and after my move, I can describe it in two ways. Sure. So I'm in the universities, I'm at KAUST in Saudi Arabia. And it's an international university, and it's a graduate level University to give some background. So most of the environment here is on graduate studies, and afterwards, based on science and technology. Okay, so that's, first of all, appealing in that sense. And the infrastructure here is, like, one of the world class. That's another appealing aspect of it. I was thinking at the time when I was my time at Imperial, so there are a couple of career options to you if you're not going to U.S. So, I was going to move to U.S. for another postdoc position probably to prepare myself to get a position in the U.S., okay? Or how it works in Europe is you get like a group leader position, or you get a big grant, and you set up a lab, and then you become in the UK a lecturer, etc. So that's the path as well. So during that time, I was in a field that was really rising, which made me get the CN prize as well. And we were having a lot of publications, and it was really, the momentum was there, you know, and I needed, I needed an environment that is already established to start. So then I thought, like, if I go to somewhere else, or get a grant or so, that slows me down, and I lose the momentum. And when I come to KAUST before for a conference, I've seen the facilities and there's a solar center here, which is an open space that everybody can work as a faculty, and you will be surprised, like, everything I needed was here. And when I got the offer, I was like, I can start immediately, so I wouldn't lose that momentum. So that's why I'm saying it was all risk but in the other sense, it was sort of the calculated risk in the best scenario for what I wanted to achieve at the time. And one other deeper motivation I had, which we may come to later on in our chat is, I had a desire to educate, you know, teach. And that's why I feel very valuable and big impact here that I can contribute to the country because there's a need, you know, it's, it's already still hungry for this higher education, and especially girls’ education, girls’ higher education, etc. So that's why I feel very good that I can contribute to a bigger thing here.
Paolo 06:56
I'm really, I'm really glad to hear you're speaking so highly about your experience in the country. And, and it's really good.
Dr. Derya Beran07:04
It's not promoted. It's all my all my thoughts.
Paolo 07:07
It's part of you. I mean, you that's free promotion, you can push, that's no problem. No problem with me, you know, you are absolutely credible. And it's also good, you know, you feel like you play a role in this sort of modernization. Yeah, like a country, which is, which is obviously on the way up is modernizing, and, you know, you can give you a contribution, it is amazing. We are getting to the time where we need to speak about your science.
Dr. Derya Beran07:34
You know, a little bit of that.
Paolo 07:36
Yeah, let's, let's put a bit of science into a scientific podcast. Feels like, you know, you're in the solar center in Saudi Arabia where it's basically, I don't know how many rainy days you have in a year, probably just one or two, I guess. So it feels like the perfect place to work on solar technology. And as you mentioned, you are in such a trendy space at the minute, you know, with all the attention given to alternative energy sources and all the rest. It's a healthy place to be it's a very interesting space, right. And, you know, your work is also very, very interesting. So, I guess, I guess we need to get to the point where you describe what you do and what you have done. Which if I can summarize the in a way is sort of developing organic materials for the generation of electricity from light. Right. But yeah, I'd love you to describe because I'm sure you'll be better than me.
Dr. Derya Beran08:36
No, I actually did really good in a nutshell in that respect. So I work in the area of energy conversion, harvesting conversion. And we do it with using we call smart materials, and functional materials, because they need to be smart enough to get that light and convert into electricity. So I'm not involved in designing molecules anymore. Now, since I have my own group, I work with more directly, synthetic chemists, colleagues, and friends. Because I know that's a completely different area of expertise that are really tearful days and nights in the lab to get like many grams of materials, I really appreciate that. But basically, we do energy harvesting conversion devices from those, as I said, functional and smart materials. That's the whole, you know, short description on that, my research.
Paolo 09:42
So you focus more on the, the applied science of the materials and you know, the design of it is something that happens early in the value chain. And I guess you were working on that during your PhD and postdoc and then.
Dr. Derya Beran09:56
Yeah, so my undergrad. Yeah, well, my undergrad we used to work with electroactive polymers. So they are used with in different areas now sensors, artificial muscles, electrochromic devices. And photovoltaics was one of them. That's how I was geared my efforts there. And then I've been to really, in my PhD, I was actually involved in really scaling up and technology development side of things. Because I was thinking, what do we do with these materials, you know, and that's how that's how I moved to such a group. And then the more I learned on that, then I was like, realizing, yeah but, we need some new materials to make those possible, how that works. So I went back to a chemistry group at Imperial College and worked with those guys together on the novel and new materials that can change the future of organic photovoltaics, when we didn't know that they could change at the time, I would say. And then working with them, now, since I established my group, I again get the efforts towards more making the devices understand them as well, which is like device physics side of it. How they perform. Why? What are the transport mechanisms behind all those devices? And then that sort of loop feedbacks to the material design, you know, and we need to talk to, again, those chemists and say, like this work like this, and that and how can we improve the property of that. And then they design new materials together. And we actually assess for their performance merits. And now look because I'm in a unique region as well. Not only from organic photovoltaics that I'm working, but also from silicon photovoltaics. This is a hot and humid region. And this is a challenge for any semiconductor in the photovoltaics that doesn't work well in hot and humid regions. And that's a huge challenge. And now we went one step further to look for the reliability and stability in this region. And make resilient, basically resilient photovoltaics. So that's my photovoltaic research, as I said, but there are other types of energy conversion and harvesting mechanisms too. And the that's thermoelectricity, because and the motivation was coming from, you know, we capture the light, and most of the stuff is dissipated heat, and there's a lot of heat around left without the light even. And then,
Dr. Derya Beran10:22
Maybe not in London, but in Saudi Arabia.
Dr. Derya Beran12:11
And then I was fascinated. Well, when I learned about thermal electrics, and I was like, Yeah, that's really cool. We could also utilize this as electricity. And that's also another way that you can use similar materials, or those functional materials to generate electricity. And that's what my group now basically works on.
Paolo 13:11
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Paolo 13:47
It's really interesting, I really don't know much about you know, the thermal transformation of energy, you know. I've tried to read and, and make an understanding of the photovoltaics, and you really need some jargon, right? And you really need to kind of understand the fundamentals there. Particularly because, you know, at the dawn of the technology organic molecules weren't particularly frequent or you wouldn't see much of that right it's mostly a silicon or an inorganic if you wish, sort of applications. Can you explain you know, in as simple as possible terms how photovoltaics in principle work so you need certain types of molecules that capture the light and transform it into charge electricity? How does this work and what kind of molecules you need?
Dr. Derya Beran14:40
Paolo, you make me redundant. You explain them in one sentence, which is way better than now I’ll speak three minutes. Yeah, something absorbs the light and converts into electricity. That's perfect. So, yeah, that is actually the basic principle. However, we do, or we used to do this with silicon, right. And silicon is used for several different semiconductor industries. And that's not actually a very, very good organic photovoltaic, although now it's one of the best commercially available material. And the motivation was, at the time a while back, the silicon panels were still expensive. And people were looking for alternative materials with scalability that could alternate. And that's when the organic photovoltaics came into play, which is by synthetic materials. So you synthesize a polymer instead of having silicon. But what is also different in this case, compared to silicon, is silicon usually just have it as an intrinsic semiconductor, you just use silicon to make electricity out. But if you use a polymer material, that was not enough to separate the charges to generate electricity within that, although it absorbed. So you need another polymer or small molecule in that sense, that can actually help- we call dissociate- separate that charge, then it can be actually turned into electricity. So for long years, that was a concept, you know, mix to two things. One, we call the donor, which takes the light, and the other one acceptor, which takes the charge from that one, and separates. So that that's how the materials were designed almost 20 years. And if I may just move on with this history. So this donor was the polymer, okay, which absorbs the light. And then because we have a lot of synthetic chemists that people really worked on the design of this donor molecule, or on the other hand, this acceptor molecule, which was called fullerene, or buckyball, used in several other applications and chemistry too, beautifully, was standing there as a sole acceptor material, because at the time, it was good enough.
Paolo 17:03
The most, the biggest multi conjugated system you can think of, right?
Dr. Derya Beran17:08
Exactly, but it can take several electrons, you know, and it was good in electron transport, etc. And people worked also to change, you know, the, that fullerene chemical structure to make it better, and so on. But it never worked out. Okay. But it was, I think easier because you, you're stuck with that buckyball. You know, although it is beautiful, you cannot really do if you ask the synthetic chemists, I think too much on the modification. But if you open up that ball structure, you can honestly change carbon, nitrogen, sulfur, whatever oxygen atoms that you can put on. So then, when people just change the donors and come to a certain performance level, which was about 12%, power conversion efficiency, to electricity. And then they did some in-hand calculations and simulations and they were like, That's it. That's where we are, and this is why organics can go and there was even thinking like, okay, this can go to commercialization or not. So there were all these discussions, and which we call like, 10% break level that you break out level. So if you're beyond 10%, that's okay. And it's exactly the time we were working on alternative acceptor materials to fullerene, but completely different than the fullerene structures. And if you want this history really behind, which is very funny, because people like Yeah, we were all working with this, and we did that material like no.
Paolo 18:37
I like I like finding.
Dr. Derya Beran18:40
Because, in fact, a student was synthesizing some sorts of materials to finish their studies, okay. And then they hand it over to materials scientists, which was like me and one of my colleagues at the time, and they were like, can you just try them in a solar cell? And I always heard these stories in history, and I thought never true. But honestly, this is how it happened. And then we went and use this material with fullerene. Okay, because when you looked at the structure, we thought, oh, that’s the donor, we use the fullerene and then we were like, this doesn’t work okay. And then you know, the guy was like, sad because it took months that it synthesized and so on, and fact it was a girl, Sarah, my friend and then we were discussing what can we do, how can we characterize this because like, she needs to finish as well. And then we looked for some energetic levels of that okay. And then when we saw these energetic levels, we were like, hold on, this can actually work with the donor as well, you know, like, should we give a try? Because energetically there needs to be a gap between this donor and acceptor that have to work. And then we’re like yeah, let’s try why not. And then we have seen something you know, it wasn’t perfect, but we have seen a charge transfer, we call it. And we’re like, hold on. And then that’s how it all started. Because then we optimized the solvent systems were further etc, etc. And then we made like 6% solar cells.
Paolo 20:12
So you realize you didn’t need the fullerene at all.
Dr. Derya Beran20:14
Yeah. And then we were like, now this is an acceptor, this is not a donor.
Paolo 20:19
And that’s where you started, then I guess you start developing variants and alternatives.
Dr. Derya Beran20:24
Yes. They took over crazily after that.
Paolo 20:29
Oh, yeah, you give organic chemists you know, freedom. And then they go in all directions.
Dr. Derya Beran20:34
And today, looking now, the organic photovoltaics at 20% in the last four to five years.
Paolo 20:41
So it's so it's ramping up very rapidly, it's overcome the performance of the silicon-based materials. And its still early days for the science, right, because silicon materials have been around for like 40 years or something? 30 years?
Dr. Derya Beran20:55
More than that, since when they were first discovered.
Paolo 20:58
So the advantages are obvious, even from the purely thermodynamic perspective. Do they offer any other type of advantages or flexibility in their use?
Dr. Derya Beran21:09
Yeah, definitely, that was the whole idea. Because these materials can be processed from solution. First of all, it's very less energy intense now is via printing and coating techniques, you know, making a silicon panel is really energy intense. We use it for energy, but to make that is also a lot of energy. So these materials can be processed from solutions or can be printed, coated over large areas. And, and because of that you can because they're synthetically possible, you can tune their properties, basically color, you know, whatever, whatever you want. And in the beginning were thinking, yeah, what would you want from a color, right? Do you want some colored glass to generate electricity? Fine, even that was interesting, because it would also block the heat to some extent. And then because it was tunable, then now it offers semi-transparency, as well. That's what you cannot achieve with silicon, obviously. And that was the whole motivation. To our startup, I would say.
Paolo 22:16
Well, let's go there, then. Yeah. What was the idea? So you found yourself with something that actually had value that could be applied in you know, you had evidence of applicability? Yes. Felt like, felt like a business opportunity. Have you? You know, this is kind of interesting for a scientist, have you ever thought in that direction?
Dr. Derya Beran22:38
So I was always practical minded. This is saying, although I'm curious, I'm not that just type. You know, some people love to just lose themselves in very fundamentals, basics, and so on. And I really, really admire them. It's amazing. But I always had an applicable mind or applied mind and said, and that's how we started when, when we had that, actually, when we had those semitransparent devices. Nikola, at the time, was a friend from me of me from my PhDs. And then he came to his postdoc to my group when I was a professor first time, which was very fun experience. When he did the devices, literally, he ran to me to show. And when we looked at each other, we both knew what it could mean, you know, because it was like, ultimately transparent or semitransparent, very high transparency that we have never seen before. And we were working last 10 years about in this field. And was very interesting, because at the time, our university was running an accelerator program, then we were like, why not? If it would work, it should work in this region. So that's how it all started. And maybe we didn't even think too much where it would go, you know, it was just like, some fun stuff to start.
Paolo 24:02
So what was the original idea of the startup? Was it also with technology companies selling the processes or the products? Or what was the idea?
Dr. Derya Beran24:10
So funny, if my if my co-founders listen to this, they will laugh about it. We were thinking of containers.
Paolo 24:19
Containers?
Dr. Derya Beran24:21
We joked a lot about this. We were thinking this could be applied to agriculture, okay. And then we were so excited, we could have boxes, you know, that could be from the shipping containers, you know, and put these things to grow plants and so on. And we went to the accelerator program and our coach, Abdur Rahman said, like, “Come on, guys, not another container idea.” Which was probably the best because we were thinking like, so small in that sense. And it was just fun, but they went with us. So well, you know, to build a business case, how it would work and what actually it can do as a whole company, an idea. And we became a technology company rather than a company that sells modules or sells transparent photovoltaic. And that's, that's why we were building, let's say, in Saudi because the idea was not about the PV idea it was or is about cooling and generating renewable energy, okay. Because these modules, they are semitransparent, and they absorb the infrared light, okay, when the infrared light is absorbed infrared light, that also blocks the heat. And you know, in this region, you think, oh, there's a lot of sun and it's good, but you know, that sun heats up too much. Exactly. And cooling is a bigger issue than just generating electricity. So that's what we're thinking to utilize this type of technologies nowadays.
Paolo 25:52
So is this like greenhouses? But in reverse, so you have greenhouses that keep the environment cooler rather than warmer?
Dr. Derya Beran26:01
Yes. So that that is actually the idea what happened during that time, say, we started to work with another startup company, in KAUST, who are working on greenhouse and plants. And then the more we work, we were like, guys, we are working for the same good, the same great reason, and we merged last year. So which was perfect, because they were covering the water scarcity and the plant side, food side of it, and we were on the energy and cooling, which was a huge problem for greenhouses. When we sort of merged our powers, I have to say, now we have this model of saying feed the world sustainably. And there are several problems associated with this, because in Saudi agriculture has been done really, really badly over the years, and there is no fresh water to do agriculture anymore. Okay, so it's all brackish water. So that's why we developed some cooling technologies that can use this brackish water first of all, and also utilize this photovoltaics to contribute to the cooling system. Okay, as energy, renewable energy sources, let's say. And then that's what we actually made our first greenhouse here, which is producing called, saltwater tomatoes, in Saudi, and combining all the sustainable technologies to grow locally-grown food, which is a huge problem in this region and in MENA and GCC. I don't know, as a fact, like 80% of the food here is exported. It's dramatic. Now in this part of the region, local food is so scarce and with the whole pandemic, and last year's what happened, the food security, people realize that it's, it's one of the first people need to be fed. So in that sense, again, I think I feel very good that we're contributing to the kingdom, to the region, and also globally to other places that have similar problems. In the US, you know, there's also a lot of regions, you'd be surprised, agriculture has been done really, really badly?
Paolo 28:20
Well, this is a warming planet, right? So there'll be the areas that will have similar problems in Saudi Arabia will just increase probably for the for the following few decades, I'm assuming. So are these greenhouses self-sustainable in many ways, so you generate all the current you need, or most of it at least?
Dr. Derya Beran28:38
Yeah, that's the plan. Oh, that's where we're going. So it's just sort of design now and how you integrate all those solutions. And that's what we are doing. And we have our targets by 2027, if I'm not mistaken, that we're going to be all sustainable grown food. I always say organic is out. Organic is out, sustainable it's in!
Paolo 29:08
Okay, make sense. I had a question. Right. So it's very often scientists starting entrepreneurial initiatives, you know, they struggle with things that they don't like because they're focused on the science they really love. You know, they really love the technology aspect of it. And you know, taking care of the accounts or doing sales is usually not their forte, it helps you deal with things that are not part of your background.
Dr. Derya Beran29:33
Well, that's a very good question. I am still learning. Every day, I have to say, I again, I'm not the best professor. I'm not the most experienced professor just being a professor, five years of my life, I would say, and also an entrepreneur short time. But maybe I was an entrepreneur all my life one way or another. And that's why I feel I have to admit I'm struggling. I'm struggling in the sense that I really like that side, you know, you know, after chatting with me an hour, right? I think you get the sense like that it's calling me.
Paolo 30:12
The challenge. Yeah, that's what you're looking after. Yes, the challenge, right, pushing the boundaries.
Dr. Derya Beran30:17
Yes, exactly. And now I'm all between, oh my god, do I want science or do I want this and so on. But today, I'm not that many hands on in the company side. We have a really amazing team that takeover that and I'm more on the overarching strategy, more on the board, and so on, so forth. So it's more different side of things that I am learning. Also, as a challenge.
Paolo 30:47
I know you'll feel like you, you're still in your journey, and you still want to grow and learn. But, you know, it's a good time now to also leverage what you said at the very beginning, you like to coach people, right? You like to teach not in a from an academic perspective, say, you know, helping people out and try and achieve their goals and grow. So I get to the to the my last question, which is always the same in my, in my interviews, which is, now at this stage of your career if you had to look back and think about your own path, what would you recommend to someone younger, just starting?
Dr. Derya Beran31:29
If I look back, and people starting in this young career. I think I would say look for mentors. I didn't realize that they were my mentors at the time. Because I think I was relationship-oriented person. I am. And I know today, but I always had a mentor or mentors around me who I listened, I filtered what they say, I did what they say or sometimes I didn't. That always opened up new doors and helped me out. So because those people know other people and they talk and so on and when they see a spark in you, they will help. This is the beauty of life. And second thing I would say I think is self-awareness. I realized who I am too late. I feel you know, like what kind of person I am, what kind of personality I have. Am I an introvert? Am I an extrovert? Am I a clarifier? Am I a finisher? You know, these things nowadays are so easy to get? And it really helps to leverage your strengths, you know, and work on your less strength points that you can actually, that takes a lot of energy from you basically. And I think if you know yourself early on, you can realize the maximum potential of you wherever you are and you will be so successful and I'm sure nothing can stop you.
Paolo 33:12
That was Dr. Darya Baran, Associate Professor at the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology Solar Center, and one of the Chemical and Engineering News' Talented 12. Thanks for joining us for the season three episode of Bringing Chemistry to Life and keep an ear out for more. If you enjoyed this conversation, you're sure to enjoy Dr. Baran's book, video, podcast, and other content recommendations. Look in the episode notes for a URL where you can access these recommendations and register for a free Bringing Chemistry to Life t-shirt. This episode was produced by Sarah Briganti, Matt Ferris, and Matthew Stock.