We’re graced with insights and perspectives from one of chemistry’s greats in this special episode. Lesley Yellowlees joins us to talk electrochemistry, the importance of diversity in science for solving grand challenges, and the responsibility that scientists have in being ambassadors of science to the general public. Join us to hear from, and learn from, one of the greats!
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Many discussions have that “ah ha moment” making them memorable. It doesn’t happen often that you get half a dozen of these moments in less than an hour. It’s conversations like this one that make running this podcast worthwhile and really fun.
Lesley Yellowlees, Professor of Inorganic Electrochemistry at the University of Edinburgh, first woman President of the Royal Society of Chemistry, and uber-accomplished chemistry with a never-ending list of academic and scientific achievements, needs no introduction. What needs attention is the many things she has to share and her unique style of doing so. She is personable and makes a palpable connection between herself and her science by sharing her journey through the experience, learnings, achievements, but also challenges and failures of one of the most influential chemists of today.
We speak about electrochemistry, its long history and recent popularity, but also about the importance of fundamental research in fueling progress as well as scientists’ responsibility in communicating the value of science to the general public. All of this from someone that has been a pioneer in her field and dedicated herself to be the first of many, rather than a one-and-only. What Lesley Yellowlees has done, and continues to do, to level the opportunities for women and other underrepresented groups in STEM is regarded as a milestone in the history of the field of chemistry. And she reminds us, there is still a lot of work to do!
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 00:00
I think if you find to break through the glass ceiling, or whatever you're calling it, but as people also, you know, to continue with that throw down the ladder to make sure that there's people coming up behind you.
Paolo 00:19
Leslie Yellowlees is without exaggeration, a legend in the world of chemistry. And in 2012, she was elected president of Britain's Royal Society of Chemistry, becoming the first woman to ever hold that position. In this season four episode of Bringing Chemistry to Life, we have the pleasure of learning from Professor Yellowlees about her research, her career through science, and her hopes for equity and opportunity in our community. I'm your host, Paolo Braiuca, from Thermo Fisher Scientific, and I'm so excited to share this conversation with you. We began by asking Professor Yellowlees, about her beginnings.
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 00:59
I went to an all-girls school. And I had three inspirational teachers and physics, chemistry, and math, who all believed in me, and who gave me huge amounts of encouragement. And I think any anybody, any child at school needs encouragement. And so when I said I wanted to go to university to do science, then all I got was encouragement to do that. So I went to university. I did chemical physics as a first degree, because I couldn't decide whether to do chemistry, physics, or math and Chemical Physics allowed me to.
Paolo 01:34
You're in the middle, yeah.
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 01:34
Now, I know a person who sits on the fence, normally I go and decide, but I absolutely couldn't choose. And I liked the different ways of thinking, the different training, you know, a chemist doesn't always think the same way as a physicist or a mathematician. And so I think the training that I had in all three disciplines was, I found was, enormously beneficial to me. And I was having a discussion, in fact, with somebody yesterday about how we, as scientists, don't always bother to take other people with us.
Paolo 01:43
Right.
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 01:49
You know, we talk in shorthand to each other and understand what each other is saying. But then when it comes to speaking to other people, I think it's a great skill. And I think it's a skill that people have to learn as this communication with others that are not so deeply embedded in the language or the methodology of thought, or whatever it is that you're doing. And I think we do ourselves a great disservice by not making sure that other people understand what it is what we're doing or trying to do.
Paolo 02:40
Finding the right ways is difficult, but important at the same time, and then there's a lot of work to do.
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 02:48
So you know, I gave my mother a copy of my PhD thesis when I did it. A hard copy. And as she says, the only bit she understood was the bit that said to my family at the beginning.
Paolo 02:59
I think my mom has a copy of my PhD thesis. I don't think she's ever opened it. So there is actually, yes, to my family, but I don't think she knows. Anyways, have you seen any progress? I mean, I believe from what I've seen, and you know, the experience with the podcast, that the newer generations seem to understand. I mean they seem to be a bit more attention to communication that be more talent? Would you agree with that? Or are we still behind?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 03:28
The optimist in me, and I'm definitely a half glass full person, would like to believe that. I am a member of CASE which is the Campaign for Science and Engineering in the UK, and I sit on their board. And we've just conducted a big survey, a big piece of work, on how the public perceive and understand research and development. And I think it's quite frightening. The level where people understand it, and just how few people do truly understand what research and R&D is. And when we looked at it as a breakdown of age, that's the younger people in particular thought that public purse should not be paying for research. You know, and that frightens me, that is a great concern. So I would like to believe that the public are getting better, but are they? I don't think when you go out and ask people, that is necessarily true. You know, we've got to get people understanding the fundamental understanding what the benefits of research are. I mean, they're obvious to you and me, and I think they'll probably be obvious to most people that under, that listen to this podcast. But we've got to somehow reach, stretch beyond the people we're comfortable speaking to, because if we don't, then I fear for the funding of research.
Paolo 05:03
Do you see the scientific community coming to terms with that, and sort of understanding that something needs to be done?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 05:11
I think the scientific community constantly needs reminded, that needs to be done.
Paolo 05:17
Awareness is all we need, right? And then we need some advocates. You have spoken about the importance of fundamental research. That's what you have done for most of your career. You know, your involvement in electrochemistry, spectroelectric chemistry, there's a lot of pioneering work. And it's interesting, right? Because we said, hey, you need to fundamental research to that, you know, maybe 10-20 years down the line, you know, there'll be some, some applied technology from it. And electrochemistry is an interesting example to me, and maybe I'm off and please correct me if you disagree. But there's a bit of a renaissance if you will, right. There's, if I look at how hot it is, at the moment with applications in the sort of hydrogen economy, or you know, the solar panels, and, you know, people are thinking about carbon capture or nitrogen cycle and all these things, and chemistry plays a big role. And this is possible, because of all the fundamental research that has been done over the decades. And you know, I like to go through it, you know, in your experience, and you know, what you reckon your contribution to the field has been? And is it true that you started in Australia working on electrochemistry? Or have I got it confused?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 06:27
No, no, no, no, you've got that, right. When I graduated with my degree in chemical physics, my husband and I decided we were going to go and travel. So we ended up in Australia, and I got a job there. That's where I got into electrochemistry, and solar energy. That's what started my enthusiasm for the subject.
Paolo 06:50
So these just happen, you happen to be there. And that was the opportunity you had, you started, did you have like an interest and you kind of created an opportunity for yourself.
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 07:01
I was there and my husband had got a job. And I got the opportunity of doing research in the University of Queensland, doing solar energy research. I was there for two and a half years, loved it. But we decided to come back to the UK, we came back to the UK, back to Edinburgh in fact. And I had realized that when I was doing the research in Australia, that actually, if I was going to make a success of doing research, then I really needed a PhD. We came back to the UK back to Edinburgh. And I'd enjoyed doing solar energy research. I'd enjoyed electrochemistry. So I went back to the University of Edinburgh, to the chemistry department and said, I'd like to do a PhD. This is what I'd like to do. And I knew perfectly well it didn't do that type of research. But they said, we've got somebody who does inorganic electrochemistry, I spoke to him. And he said, well, I've got funding, come and I will design a project together. And we'll design a project using my skills in electrochemistry. And I'll teach you some more. And you can do the solar energy, the dyes that you're interested in. So I was very fortunate. I came with a set of ideas, and they weren't laughed out of court. And that's what I ended up doing. So how lucky was I?
Paolo 08:23
So we've spoken about making the science accessible, why don't you give me your definition of what electrochemistry really means. And you know, spectroelectric chemistry, really means.
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 08:35
Okay, so electrochemistry, electro is the word electricity, it's the flow of electrons. What you do in an electrochemical physics experiment is you push these electrons through some sort of medium that was full of the, had contained in that solution, a material a compound that would interact, take on board the electron or give up an electron, and then some, then you would change. So you would change the number of electrons in the system. And then either you would make some chemistry happen, or you would easily get some chemistry happening. But sometimes there's just the electrons float on and off. And so it's the interaction really between electrons, and another species. And electrochemistry, this transfer of electrons happens. You know, it's ubiquitous, it's everywhere. That's what sort of keeps us alive as well as this flow of electrons. What I was interested in was in solar energy. And so what electrons do there is that they are light. You can do light as well can shine on the species excite electrons and those electrons can also flow. And what I did was to combine electrochemistry. So that is transferring electrons either on or off a species with another spectroscopic technique. And why I did that was another and that's why the spectro comes from the spectroelectrochemistry is a combination of a spectroscopic technique with an electrochemical technique. And why did I do that? Well, it was to study the characteristics to try and characterize the new compound you'd formed by either putting an electron onto that or taking electron off it. So that was to reduce it if you give an electron or oxidize it to take an electron off it. And what did that species look like? What I was interested in was the species that were stable when you change the number of electrons on board. To characterize them, I had to develop those techniques to be able to put the electrochemical part, the electrochemical cell if you want, the electrodes that would move it and that were moving the electrons inside a spectrometer.
Paolo 11:12
Is there any piece of work or any moment, you know of the of the many things your work on, that you have a particularly fond memory?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 11:19
I think when I first developed the UV visible cell, and I did the experiments I was working on was ruthenium with three bipyridine ligands attached to it. So the bipyridine, and it has three relatively easy reductions. So you can reduce it and one electron steps three times. And I reduced it three times. And I got the spectra of each of those three reduce species. And what I saw was that, as you were each spectum was a combination of the fully reduced species and the fully, of the fully oxidized species, and the ones in between, were just simply a summation of the two. Okay, so you weren't going through three different. What was happening was each time you put an electron on the system, it was going into one of the bipyridine rings, not all of them. Understand. So it went into 1, 2, 3. And that had never been seen before. And when I did the experiment, and looked at the results, and saw that the only way, well, the easiest way to explain what had happened was that it was each of the bipyridine rings and turn being reduced, and not over the whole molecule. You know that it was so exciting. And I can remember running down the corridor telling everybody and nobody else was totally interested in what I was doing. Who is this nutcase running down the corridor? But, you know, I think it's that well, that light bulb moment it was, was just great. It's just worth doing this. You know, that's what science is about.
Paolo 13:05
I understand. It's like nature is opening up in front of you to say, yeah, now I'm showing you how it really works, right?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 13:12
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And it was wonderful.
Paolo 13:15
It's incredible, right? Because you've had a long successful career. And yet, what you're telling me is basically, your first aha moment. It's amazing, it's really nice. And, you know, you're obviously famous for your pioneering science, but, uh, you know, you, you're also the popular in your name is, as I said, at the beginning, you know, you're a legend to me. You know, you're being the first woman president of the Royal Society of Chemistry, you know, and you've been one of the biggest advocates for women in STEM. This is really important, right, and I, you know, like, I like to take the opportunity to, to get to get your perspective. But first of all, you know, the first woman president of the Royal Society of Chemistry, and that happened just in 2012.
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 13:58
Yeah. When I was approached to say that they were considering putting my name forward to be president, I was just thrilled. Throughout my career, I've always taken an interest in the Royal Society of Chemistry. So I knew the society well, and I absolutely believed in the society. And so it was a great honor. It was a great privilege to have my name, go forward and then be selected to, you know, be by my peers. Before I became president, the society approached me and said, what do you want to do with your presidency?They said it's important that you also get to do something you want to do with the presidency. What do you want to do with this presidency? So I said, well, in my opinion, I'd be very foolish if I didn't use this platform to be able to speak about women in senior positions, women in science as a whole? And they said, well, fine, but I think we should broaden it to be, you know, just not women. It's about all the underrepresented groups within science. And I said, yes, of course, absolutely. I have to say probably we concentrated more on women than many of the other underrepresented, you know, groups, because this was in 2012. And it was the beginning, I think of the era of where people were talking about and actually prepared to do something about changing the lack of women in science, and certainly the lack of women at senior positions in chemistry. You know, chemistry was probably almost a middle ranking science. You know, if you talk about physics, there's not as many girls take physics at school, less than a quarter of people who present for physics A levels are female, whereas in chemistry is much more 50/50. And so the problem isn't at school in chemistry level, but if you were to look at the number of professors in chemistry, then the number of female professors is far too low. It's, you know, it's only about 10% in the UK, whether.
Paolo 16:22
It's so low?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 16:23
Yeah. So you know, whereas this 50% are studying chemistry at university level. Not every subject is the same, but there's definitely a leaky pipeline. And why is that? So? I thought it was important that I use the platform, I had to be able to advocate for women, and those minority groupings who weren't taking science up. Why aren't they taking up science? And then if they are taking up science, why are they leaving science? Why aren't they continuing on to leadership positions, senior positions? And what can I do to make it better? And the Royal Society of Chemistry was prepared to back me and so I have that name behind me as well. Fantastic. What's not to like?
Paolo 17:10
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Paolo 17:56
Why do you think it is even you know, from younger age, at least certain scientific discipline doesn’t seem to be in favor of girls via school? And then, you know, why do we have this sort of leakage in the pipeline of women who actually get into scientific career but then don't end up in leadership positions? Yeah. Is it? Is it cultural to start with? And I guess there must be a lot of progress and evolution over time. But what did you find out? You know, just starting with you, with the platform, the RSC, and all the work does is there.
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 18:29
So yes, there's this culture in there. I think there's also women still are the main carers in a family. And I think we found that out again, during COVID, that it was mainly the females that that were left with the caring responsibilities. It doesn't have to be children, it can be your elderly parents, or whatever. So I think society, particularly in the West, is very geared to that, which isn't helpful. A scientific career is it's not all plain sailing, but it can be very rewarding. I also think getting into senior leadership roles can be quite lonely. It takes a lot of energy to do it well. Are the rewards great? Yes, they are great. What I was set out to do was to make the opportunity there for everybody. You don't need to take the opportunity, but at least have it there for you, you know, at least have the door open for you, at least have some support. And in many cases, impostor syndrome’s alive and well, isn't it that people don't think usually, you know. Do I have it? Of course I have it. But its helping people realize that there are coping mechanisms for that and there are support mechanisms. The opportunities are wonderful. They're vast, huge, terrific. And I was lucky, or I made my luck, or I have good support. But that should be, that should be there for everybody.
Paolo 20:04
I'm not sure I believe you, when you're speaking about imposter syndrome. You can't have impostor syndrome, now. If you do, then you know that, of course, that will be really reassuring for everyone. Is it true?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 20:18
The rest of the family won't be pleased when I go back with my ego puffed up today, and there'll be going enough of that.
Paolo 20:25
So, I was reading your Tapping All Our Talents. I think that's one I found in 2018, I think. And, you know, it was kind of reassuring, because it felt like there was an improvement.
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 20:38
There is. There was. And it's and it is continuing.
Paolo 20:43
So in a way your platform helped out and you know, and things are getting better. So are you positive? And what would you think the future is going to look like?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 20:54
You know, you've got to be positive. And being positive for me, means that I find it much easier to go out and be supportive and positive with other people. If I seriously thought that it was going to be so hard to do science and come with the background you come with, and that you can't overcome that, and you can't enjoy it, and you can't deliver, and you can't contribute to it. How depressing would that be? I mean, I always find it when you speak to early career researchers, it can't spend too long on the negatives of saying, well give us your examples of give an example of you know, how some treatment you got for because you were a female, and the male wouldn't have happened? Well, of course, we can all give come up with stories like that. But if you keep continually telling these stories, why would anybody ever want to go and do that as a job? Why would anybody want to take up a career in science? If so, I try very hard not to tell those stories and to tell the positive ones to do the reinforcing ones. Because, you know, if I was starting off again, and all I heard was a litany of this is going to happen to you and you're going to have this disaster and you know, men aren't going to take you seriously and etc.s, etc. Would you get up in the morning? No, no, you know, so I think it's important that you tell a positive story. But not only do you tell a positive story, you live the positive story. So you show by example, let's help people on let's not do them down.
Paolo 22:39
What do you think we need to keep doing? Is it just speaking about it enough? Or is there any sort of more concrete action that we should consider as a scientific community?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 22:48
You know when I started off, in you went for an interview. And that happens a lot is that colleagues wanted to appoint somebody that was in their own image, almost, you know, that they could talk football with, I think a lot of work has been done to help people realize unconscious bias if you want and that has positive and negative connotations associated with it. But I do think it's terribly important that we all understand our own biases, and guard against that look for the best set of team members you can. And to get a good team going you don't want everybody thinking the same. You don't want everybody with the same background. You want people thinking differently, with different backgrounds, and to be open to that background and to be open to what they're delivering what they're bringing to the conversation, what they're bringing to the problem. And I think that aspect has gotten a lot better, because people have realized that, in fact, teams perform much better if they've got a diversity within them. But that took some time to help people understand that. And we've got to help people understand things.
Paolo 24:07
Do you think the UK is a little bit ahead of the curve compared to other places? I know that the Nordic countries have done a lot, you know, yes, you know, in a broader context, society to for equal opportunities. But you know, if you just look at the science field, would you say the UK is in a good position at the moment? Is there is there more work to be done?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 24:30
There's always work to be done. I mean, I think the States have done a lot of work as well. And when I started, I looked to the States really, for what the inspiration showed how it could be done. You know, where possible, don't reinvent the wheel, just go and look to see where it's been successful. But there's still work to be done. And people will say, oh, we've sorted the gender thing. We don't need to worry about it anymore, but we do need to still worry about it. It's still not fixed, you know, we still got a way to go. I mean, I'm not saying you have to get to 50/50. I don't think that's true at all. But I do think if we can, great. But I think as long as the opportunity is there, and that, that people aren't coming up for blocks for what they're there in their career, just simply from their background, that is rubbish that is so wrong. So wrong.
Paolo 25:25
We will need to, you know, to remain cautious, right. And keep being explicit about it and not let it become like a habit or forgetting about the problem. Because, you know, we could it could reverse that. That's what you're saying.
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 25:37
That is absolutely what I'm saying. And that has been, there's been research and that is shown to be the case. So until you get it embedded in the culture, until it stops being something that needs to be talked about, then we have to keep remembering, then we have to keep pushing it forward.
Paolo 25:56
Do you think this moment is far still? You know? Is it going to happen in a decade or two? Or will it ever?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 26:05
Well, statistics say it's still a good off. Yeah, yeah.
Paolo 26:12
You're a scientist, of course.
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 26:14
I love the numbers. Yeah, give me the data. So, you know, I mean a very obvious thing is the gender pay gap is still, unfortunately, alive and well. I would like it to be solved overnight, it won't be. So we've got to work at it. But to work at it, you've got to keep reminding yourself that it's still a problem.
Paolo 26:39
With what you have presented for the community, and your professional experience, and you know, the work you've done, you know, you can be an example. And I know for sure that a lot of people looking at you and trying to replicate what you've done and carry on with the work.
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 26:53
It's nice to hear you say that because you know when I became the first female president of the Royal Society of Chemistry. And also when I became the first head of school and became the first head of science and engineering at the University of Edinburgh, I never wanted to be the last. It's fine to break through the glass ceiling or whatever you're calling it. But as people also, you know, to continue with that, throw down the ladder to make sure that there's people coming up behind you, because I would have counted it as a failure if I had been the first and the last. How awful would that have been? That would have been, what I would, then I would have taken that as failure. And that hasn't happened. So thank goodness.
Paolo 27:36
I'm tempted to ask you a question that might be uncomfortable. Are you proud? If you look back? Are you proud?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 27:42
Yes, rarely do I look back and think to myself, I must, you know, I should be proud. I've been blessed with a lot of opportunities. But I've also taken those opportunities, you know, and that's another thing I was saying is say yes. When somebody offers, give it a go. Rarely is it that you can't come back from if it doesn't work out, but usually it does work out. But when it doesn't, you know, if you've not shut those doors, as we talked about earlier, then you can go back.
Paolo 28:18
Regretting not to have taken an opportunity would be much worse than having gone for it and failed, right?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 28:24
Yeah. Awful don't you think? So that was one of the things I've lived by is to never feel that I would look back and think I wish I had done that. And you know, I'll bet you in many years’ time, because you’ve so got a huge career ahead of you. You'll twist them to be all positives. Not always immediately. But give it a couple of years and you'll find a positive.
Paolo 28:48
Yeah, it is true. Sometimes it takes time. And this, this seems to be like a perfect segue to my usual and, you know, final question every interview finished in the same way. And nobody can answer that better than you, I think. So I am quite curious to hear what you have to say. But, uh, you know, now that you've been through a lot of different experience in a successful career, and you've meant so much for a lot of us in the community. Now, what would be your, you know, hints, your recommendation for someone younger just starting in their scientific career?
Professor Lesley Yellowlees 29:28
So I knew you asked this question at the end. So I had been contemplating it. And I think I would give the advice I think that was given to me when I was starting out. When I was told, I wasn't told, but when I met my head of department one day on the stairs, and he said to me, “Lesley, I think you're trying to do too much.” At the time, I was doing a job for the university, I was trying to run a research group, and I had two young children at home. And he said, in his opinion, you could do two things really well. But I had to choose what I was going to do. And he said to me, “and I'll bet you, you'll keep with the children.” Which was good that he said that because that was a sure perception. And so I said, yes, I would keep with the children. I thought I could do everything; I could do at all. But I went and thought about it. And they were correct. And I came back and did research and made my name in research, which then helped me do everything else I did. And I think it was good advice. I think you can do two things very well. But I think if you try to do too many things at the one time, it slips and so you end up shortchanging yourself, but also shortchanging what it is you're trying to do. So it's something that I've kept in mind ever since that is to not try and do everything at the one time. You can do everything, but not at this all at the same time. You can do it sequentially and to choose what it is you're doing. So that would be my advice. Don't try and do it all at the same time.
Paolo 31:26
There was Leslie Yellowlees, Professor of Inorganic Electrochemistry at the University of Edinburgh, a former president of the Royal Society of Chemistry. Thanks for joining us for this special season four episode of Bringing Chemistry to Life and keep an ear out for more. If you enjoyed this conversation, you're sure to enjoy Professor Yellowlees' book, video, podcasts, and other content recommendations. Look in the Episode Notes for instructions on how to access these recommendations and how to register for a free Bringing Chemistry to Life t-shirt. This episode was produced by Sarah Briganti, Matt Ferris, and Matthew Stock.